Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines
Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze … Part 5b
A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 5b
DEVIDED INTO 3 SEPARATE LESSONS
A friendly word of caution to our non-Catholic friends
(Ed-note-)
patrick j miron might do some research and discover who the people that ST- Paul was talking about. as to who were these false apostles? ) --
{instead of extrapolating that scripture more than 1,500 years later}
romans 8;14-16-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
(Ed-note-)
patrick j miron might do some research and discover who the people that ST- Paul was talking about. as to who were these false apostles? ) --
{instead of extrapolating that scripture more than 1,500 years later}
Patrick j miron's mis-use of scripture is notable-
romans 8;14-16-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
2Cor.11:13 to 15 “For such men are false apostles,
[pjm-NOTE:
There can logically only be One Truth per precise issue.
What are the odds that the truth didn’t happen for 1, 500 YEARS after the Bible had been written?]
deceitful workmen,
disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
And no wonder,
for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
[Perhaps unknowingly]
Their end will correspond to their deeds.”
[pjm-NOTE:
There can logically only be One Truth per precise issue.
What are the odds that the truth didn’t happen for 1, 500 YEARS after the Bible had been written?]
deceitful workmen,
disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
And no wonder,
for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
[Perhaps unknowingly]
Their end will correspond to their deeds.”
The Bible never infers that that any saints, living or dead, sympathize with us more than God does. … This is a irrelevant observation.
Paul speaks directly to and about those he understands are doing all that is required to become saints. He praises there example and ask others to emulate them.
Catholics do not so much prayer to Saints [as THROUGH them to God], NOT because they are more sympathetic than God;
No, we Catholics pray THROUGH them because they STAND IN THE VERY PRESENCE OF GOD,
Patrick j miron delusional belief #2832
---------------------and then add to our prayers, there own on our behalf.]-----------------------
Gee i wonder why that's not really in the bible-- scripture that they "ADD" our prayers to their prayers"
oh wait let's re- interpret the bible scripture to our inching ears
Paul speaks directly to and about those he understands are doing all that is required to become saints. He praises there example and ask others to emulate them.
Catholics do not so much prayer to Saints [as THROUGH them to God], NOT because they are more sympathetic than God;
No, we Catholics pray THROUGH them because they STAND IN THE VERY PRESENCE OF GOD,
Patrick j miron delusional belief #2832
---------------------and then add to our prayers, there own on our behalf.]-----------------------
ED- note
oh wait let's re- interpret the bible scripture to our inching ears
Heb. 12: 1 “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, [SAINTS in heaven] let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Tob.12: 15 “I am Raphael, one of the seven holy [Arch] angels [Saints and Angels are considered here to be of similar class] who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2 Tim. 1: 16-18 Paul Prays for the dead: 16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me-- may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day--and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.”
1Mac.12:11 “We therefore remember you constantly on every occasion, both in our feasts and on other appropriate days, at the sacrifices which we offer and in our prayers, as it is right and proper to remember brethren”
Christ Himself tells us to whom we should pray.
Matt.7:7-8 “Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Do Protestants Believe in the Saints ? Yes BUT, not the same understanding of the term as Catholics have.
WHY don’t Protestants pray to saints? … Because the bible tells us not too [“because they are idols.”]
“To answer the Catholic argument that “saints do answer prayers” with miracles, we must respond that spiritual manifestations [including miracles] can come from two different places: God, or the Devil and his demons.” …
Patrick j Miron delusional opinion #1,289
THIS FRIENDS IS A SPIRITUAL IMPOSSIBILITY. JUST AS GOD CANNOT CAUSE EVIL DIRECTLY; SATAN IS LIMITED BY GOD IN WHAT HE CAN accomplish IN GOD’S NAME.
Patrick j Miron delusional opinion #1,289
THIS FRIENDS IS A SPIRITUAL IMPOSSIBILITY. JUST AS GOD CANNOT CAUSE EVIL DIRECTLY; SATAN IS LIMITED BY GOD IN WHAT HE CAN accomplish IN GOD’S NAME.
"And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." —Exodus 7:10-12
patrick j miron delusional opinion #787
While Satan can cause UNNATURAL phenomenon to happen; he cannot cause good to happen in order to deceive those who are and strive to be good.;
which is the point missed by our Brother Thomas …
God’s Saints always and every time who have miracles performed THROUGH THEM BY GOD, always and every time do so for a good. This follows the example set by Christ Himself while He was on earth.
Matt. 10: 1-8 “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb'edee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.”
These same powers and authority granted to the Apostles continue to flow through His one Church in order to fulfill God’s mandate to “teach the whole world” Mt. 28:19-20. …John 17: 18-19 “As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [WITH MY GODLY POWERS AND AUTHORITY] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth”
We shall begin our Catholic Response; exposing “The NAKED TRUTH”. God and truth are on the side of the only set of Faith beliefs found in the New Covenant ; for the newly “Chosen People” of His one and only Catholic Church, with His One and only One, set of faith beliefs.
FACTS: According to Patrick J Miron
1.Patrick j miron opinion # 4123
Only Peter and the CC through him have been GRANTED the “keys” [ALL THAT IS NECESSARY for one’s own salvation] by Jesus Himself in person…Matt. 16:15-19
{ED note- patrick j miron seem to be in direct conflict with the scriptures}
John 1:12 - King James Bible Online
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/JOhn-1-12/Jul 2, 2010 – John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: ... from the ...- [PDF]
“HE CAME UNTO HIS OWN” “HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT” “AS ...
www.bereanbiblesociety.org/.../HE%20CAME%20UNTO%20HIS%2...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” Only receivers and believers become ... John 1:12 KJV - But as many as received him, to them - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A12&version...But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his.John 1:12 NKJV - But as many as received Him, to them He - Bible ...
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A12&version...But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His.John 1:12 - To As Many As Received Him
www.bible.ca/ef/expository-john-1-12.htmJohn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12, KJV). As I was ..."As Many As Received Him"
www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Curtis.../as_many_as_received.htmHe came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe ...As Many As Received Him -John 1:12 - by Will Kinney
www.sovereignword.org/.../190-as-many-as-received-him-john-112-...In John 1:11-13 we read: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God ...John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to ...
www.godvine.com/bible/John/1-12John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Continuing with Patrick j miron commentary facts
2. The term “church” was first introduced by Jesus Himself in Matt. 16:18 “And I [Jesus] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,” [SINGULAR]
3. Therefore it is a FACT that every reference to “church and churches” contained in the Bible, must and Do reference ONLY to today’s Catholic Church. The ONLY “church” in the entire world when the bible was completely written.
{ED note- did patrick j miron completely convince you now?}
Patrick j Miron delusion commentary and lie #654
{ED note- did patrick j miron completely convince you now?}
Patrick j Miron delusion commentary and lie #654
lie--4. No where in the entire Bible, either explicitly or implicitly did God EVER approve of ANY set of teachings, or ANY “other church or Faith” other than the RCC [and the 23 branches aligned with Her]
ED- note - of the following
John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, ... we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him,
... a common exorcist, could be able to work a miracle in Christ's name; we may ... in which he and some of his fellow disciples were concerned, and which he ...
ED- note - of the following
Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons ...
bible.cc/mark/9-38.htm
John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, ... we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him,
... a common exorcist, could be able to work a miracle in Christ's name; we may ... in which he and some of his fellow disciples were concerned, and which he ...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sxEwh-mJfHA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Luke 9:49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in ...
bible.cc/luke/9-49.htm
John said to Jesus, "Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out ... we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, ... we saw some one casting out demons in thy name, and we forbad him, ... 9:43-50 This prediction of Christ's sufferings was plain enough, but the disciples would not ... Whoever Is Not Against Us Is For Us
www.alfredplacechurch.org.uk/Sermons/mark50.htm
... said John, 'we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, ...
"Do not stop that man from casting our demons," Jesus said. ... So here was an anonymous man labouring in the name of Christ, a true disciple, and he ... Paul wrote these words, "It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry ...
Mark 9:39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a ...
bible.cc/mark/9-39.htm
But Jesus said, "Don't stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name can ... There are men calling themselves Christians who seem to look with doubt and ... with, who might be casting out devils in his name, giving this as a reason for it; ... "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, ...These people Jesus did not condemn --christian denominations- who were applying the principles he taught..
Now -----Continuing with the Patrick j miron commentary-------------------
5. Therefore what Thomas and protestant denominations seem to have done is violate the very code of the Bible, by denial of God’s actual and real teaching, or simply not understanding them, and proliferate “faiths” designed by mortal men, based on convenience, ease of worship, and ONLY human-logic; who it appears think that they know more; or know better than Jesus Christ Himself.
The ONLY set of faith beliefs actually given by God, Inspired by God, Protected by God and warranted by Jesus Himself. Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 28:16-20; John 14:16-17; John 17:15-19; and John 20:19-22... And in John 15 and 19 Jesus specifically transfers His Power and His Authority to His CC; and never; ever to anyone else can this be said of. “As the Father has sent ME; so to I God send YOU!”(pjm) “My Catholic] Church“. delusion #8932
The ONLY set of faith beliefs actually given by God, Inspired by God, Protected by God and warranted by Jesus Himself. Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 28:16-20; John 14:16-17; John 17:15-19; and John 20:19-22... And in John 15 and 19 Jesus specifically transfers His Power and His Authority to His CC; and never; ever to anyone else can this be said of. “As the Father has sent ME; so to I God send YOU!”(pjm) “My Catholic] Church“. delusion #8932
6. For more than ONE THOUSAND YEARS the only Christian-“church” that existed was today’s Catholic Church.
Ed-s Note
when Patrick J Miron invents "facts" it is one way to see his "Delusional" interests in persuading the reader to swallow "this particular lie"
Ed-s Note
when Patrick J Miron invents "facts" it is one way to see his "Delusional" interests in persuading the reader to swallow "this particular lie"
ED. Note-
todays roman catholic church is not the same as the church Paul or James or math, mark or John wrote of in the bible , or Acts or that matter.
a big change was in 325 ad- when constantine took over the church.
Constantine the Great (Latin: Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus;[3] c. 27 February 272[2] – 22 May 337), also known as Constantine I or Saint Constantine,[4] was Roman Emperor from 306 to 337. Well known for being the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity,[
Now on with -- other erroneous facts and presentation with patrick j Miron
7. The NT alone provides more than One HUNDRED proofs of Only One God; Only His One set of beliefs, in and through His only One Catholic Church. And YES, I can provide the list.
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.”
Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
So my friends how are we to respond to this level of misunderstandings? There can be and there is only one singular truth. God and logic permits only one truth per issue. With God’s assistance with we shall present it with charity, and clarity, these truths as taught By Christ Himself and allow you to decide who shares the singular truth. We’ll tackle this task by topic, so that one can gain a right [fully supported by the Bible], understanding of the Catholic Position; which is defacto: GOD”S ONLY POSITION.
OUR FIRST TOPIC to be explained correctly and defended WILL BE THE COMMANDMENTS
Let’s compare The [Catholic] Douay Rheims version of Exodus chapter 20, to that of the [Protestant] King James Bible, and see how they differ, and see if we can explain any differences.
The first Entire Bible [in a single language] was the Latin Vulgate, translated from Greek, Aramaic, and Latin around the year 350 AD by the Catholic, St. Jerome, into the first complete bible in a single Latin language, and the Church called it ’the Latin Vulgate”, copies of which can still be found today. The reason for Latin was because it was the official language of the then, “world-wide” Roman Empire, led by Constantine, so the common language of the world became “Latin.“ Quite naturally the RCC too accepted “Latin” as there own “common language.
The Douay Rheims [the first Catholic “common English-language bible“] and the Vulgate were the Bibles Luther used to “create” his own version of a Christian bible. And it in addition to making many textual changes to support his new beliefs , eliminated seven bible books. “The books now known as the Apocrypha are also called the deuterocanonical books Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees. The Catholic bible also include chapters in the books of Esther and Daniel not found in the Protestant Bibles. Some have claimed that we Catholics added them but they have always been in the Bible.” The logical question of course is If the Bible is the “Inspired Words of God“; [2nd. Tim. 3:16] WHY WHERE THEY REMOVED AFTER 1,500 years in the Bible?
In reaction to the Protestant Revolution, Led by Luther, and soon joined by John Calvin, Wycliffe and others, who were preparing there “own modified bible version into their own common language [language of the people]” from the once Catholic “Only” Bible, caused the Church to publish its own Catholic Version, also in “common language,” so as to prevent, or at least not make it necessary for the “flock of Christ” to turn to the Protestant Bibles, in search of biblical knowledge, which would naturally lead to errors of faith..
King Henry the Eighth separated from the RCC around 1200 AD, and had his own version of the Anglican Bible, but it never really caught on outside of the Realm of England, as this was before the invention of the printing press. His “State” religion was really only practiced in England where it was forced on the populace.
Prior to this the RCC did not want people to be reading the bible by themselves, fearing that it was too easy to error in self-interpretation. That fear has been factually- validated, and continues to exist today, and has led to and is the cause of the MANY THOUSANDS of Protestant denominations; each with there own understanding of what the bible actually means. Obviously these cannot be true or correct , nor are they God’s Inspired and Holy Spirit directed Understandings. As supported by Biblical evidence, the RCC is the only fully authorized by God, guided, and fully-God-protected source for a proper translation, because that was and remains God’s Plan. [Mt/ 16:18-19; Mt. 28:19-20]
The Catholic Church probation against individual reading of the bible began because of the lack of literacy within the ranks of lay-folk within the early church’s formation.
This is the reason the Roman catholic church controlled scripture, every one was too stupid.!!
ED- note- This must have been true- because PJM says it's true..But
All though in Deu 6:6-7
the command is to read or recite the scripture to your children where ever you go. God must have not really trusted the Holy Ghost in the new testment ; who is supposted to lead you into all truth.
And this we do see in the roman catholic church--
the false belief and lie of the roman catholic church is still promoted in the roman catholic educational system,
you are too stupid .. to understand scripture -- or be like patrick j miron-- "having the Upper -Hand"
But even after the “Age of Enlightenment,” the prohibitions were continued; but now on the grounds that one who was not specifically trained in the Art of Bible study [Exegesis] could easily do more harm to their Spiritual life, than possible good.
Why did the Fathers support this opinion?
(ED note; because of control)
Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church; the ONLY “church“ when the Bible was FULLY written] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him”
Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you [My church] it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “
2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability”
John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me” [Listen to me or Obey Me!]
2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
This is only true "unless" you want to enforce your own or the Roman catholic version of Transsubstantion..
for example patrick j miron
used 1cor 11;17-27 to say that Paul believed in transsubstanstion .. because eating bread or drinking wine normally can't be done unwortherly ..
so there for saint paul must have believed in it.
because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
This is only true "unless" you want to enforce your own or the Roman catholic version of Transsubstantion..
for example patrick j miron
used 1cor 11;17-27 to say that Paul believed in transsubstanstion .. because eating bread or drinking wine normally can't be done unwortherly ..
so there for saint paul must have believed in it.
1Cor2: 6-7 “Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory”
1Tim.3: 15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, [SINGULAR] which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The Catholic Church.
2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Now back to our Commandments and the differences between what we Catholic accept and what Protestants are being force-fed to believe. Having READ both Exodus, chapter 20, and the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 5, I cannot get past the significant fact; that in its teaching and message BOTH versions TEACH the same Doctrines in BOTH the Protestant KJ version and in the Catholic bibles. Emphasis, not substance is the difference.
The Protestant position claims that Catholic’s “ARE FACTUALLY Idolaters”
The Second Commandment reads:
- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)
yes patrick j miron believes it's OK to bow down and adore a bread wafer An aspect of this commandment that is often ignored is that of intergenerational guilt and punishment. According to this commandment, punishment for the crimes of one person will be placed on the heads of their children and children’s children down through four generations — or at least the crime of bowing down before the wrong god(s).
Patrick J Miron Opinion # 856
… Is founded on a serious lack of understanding that Catholics prayers to Mary and the Saints ARE meant for them alone. Such is NOT THE TRUTH! Our prayers still ascend to GOD,
but through Mary and the Saints as intercessors, which according to the understanding of Thomas makes this practice “idolatry.”
This practice is NO MORE idolatrous than pictures of Luther, Wesley, Smith, Calvin or others. And yes even though they are not prayed “to” neither do our Prayer intensions end with Mary and the saints. The GOAL and the end of our Prayers is Jesus Christ Himself. They pass-through; FROM Mary and the Saints to Jesus. And here is how we know that God, and the Bible do not prohibit such forms of practice.
ED note
Most scholars believe that the reference to “graven images” was a reference to idols of beings other than God. It does not say anything like “graven images of men” and the implication seems to be that if someone makes a graven image, it cannot possible be one of God. Thus, even if they think they have made an idol of God, in reality any idol is necessarily one of some other god. This is why this prohibition of graven images is normally regarded as being fundamentally connected to the prohibition of worshipping any other gods.
It seems likely that the aniconic tradition was adhered to consistently in ancient Israel. Thus far no definite idol of Yahweh has been identified in any Hebrew sanctuaries. The closest that archaeologists have come across are crude depictions of a god and consort at Kuntillat Ajrud. Some believe that these may be images of Yahweh and Asherah, but this interpretation is disputed and uncertain.
Picking and choosing what parts of the Ten Commandments they will endorse is just as insulting to believers as endorsing any of them is to nonbelievers. In the same way that the government has no authority to single out the Ten Commandments for endorsement, the government has no authority to creatively edit them in an effort to make the as palatable as possible to the widest possible audience.
with Patrick j Miron and his explanation of why
it's OK to be an and ARE FACTUALLY Idolaters
The REAL issue is in the understanding of just what actually takes place; why it happens this way, and what praying to and through Mary or the Saints actually accomplishes. “Idolatry” by dictionary definition requires INTENT to divert; reverence, glory or Worship away from God and to someone / something else.
Are you Doing what God told you.. or did you turn into a piller of salt?
THAT IS NOT THE motive or INTENT OF INFORMED AND FULLY PRACTICING CATHOLICS.
Can or does it ever take place? Sure; with over one billion Catholics in the world; there are going to be some who do not correctly understand and practice our faith, fully or properly, as both God and the Magesterium desire, and as is taught by the church.
Can or does it ever take place? Sure; with over one billion Catholics in the world; there are going to be some who do not correctly understand and practice our faith, fully or properly, as both God and the Magesterium desire, and as is taught by the church.
Here are TWO Biblical examples of YAHWEH God commanding Moses to make “holy images,” for the express purpose of WORSHIPING THEM.
WORSHIP defined: 1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>
Catholics use the terminology of “Worship” with the above Merriam-Webster definition accepted and applied to God; and God alone. The other terms of “reverence,: “honor” or veneration Do apply to Saints and Mary by Catholic understanding and intent.
Exodus 25: 8-9, 18-20, 29-30, “And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell [Spiritually] in their midst. According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, [itself a form of Idol] and of all its furniture, so you shall make it. And you shall make two cherubim [a class of Angels…statues] of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be [29] And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always. [a precursor to the Most Holy Eucharist of today] , Exod.26: 1 "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet stuff; with cherubim skilfully worked shall you make them.” [This is “Images of Angels]
… 1 Chr. 18 “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim [a class of angels] that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD”
And here then is the Second time that God commanded Moses to build an “idol” for worship
Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. [“Look at “ in this application implies worship and MEANS praying to and through it to Yahweh!”]
So here we have TWO precise examples of god himself commanding mortal men to build “idols” and “create images of worship.” So then God is a sinner? OF COURSE NOT! AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE GOD AND CATHOLICS ARE DOING THE VERY SAME THING. MAKING SOMETHING THTAT REMINDS HUMANITY OF ALMIGHTY GOD. …SOMETHING THAT AS AN END USE; DOES GIVE WORSHIP TO GOD through SOMETHING ELSE.
Our friend Thomas and many Protestants either ignore these “idols” that God initiated and actually commanded of Moses,; or attempt to cast them in a different light. But read about them in your own bible. Those command by God and the express purpose are exceedingly clear and precise.
It ought to be completely clear that God does NOT prohibit statues or images. The ONLY issue God prohibits is “false-god” images and statues whose purpose is to compete with God as “alter-gods.” This is NOT what we Catholics do, as the Saints and Mary His Mother bring us closer to God. They are “a means to an end; not the end unto themselves.” Nor is it a absolute requirement to do so. Piety is a personal option and ones private expression of ones own relationship with God, Mary and the Saints.
Patrick J miron opinion #767
From the Catholic perspective: …Back to the commandment difference
We Catholics choose to separate people from property,
[things; which we feel certain Christ Himself would do], which is the way of the Deuteronomy version.
The Moses version in Exodus reflects the “values and mores” of the time. …Women were actual- PROPERTY to be used as such. Not given the status due them [by Being Created by God, just like their male counter-partners: …“In God‘s image.”, so the Catholic Church choose [rightfully] to separate property from actual souls. To separate people from mere things.
In order to have “ten separate commandments,”
the Protestants combine all issues of Covertness into a single Commandment ; the tenth commandment, putting women and property on the same value scale., so that they can then separate; the issues surrounding the Love of God into TWO separate commandments.
And thus devise and build a false case for Catholics and “idol worship.”… All the while, both Protestants and Catholics faiths believe in the very same things.
the Protestants combine all issues of Covertness into a single Commandment ; the tenth commandment, putting women and property on the same value scale., so that they can then separate; the issues surrounding the Love of God into TWO separate commandments.
And thus devise and build a false case for Catholics and “idol worship.”… All the while, both Protestants and Catholics faiths believe in the very same things.
The reason this is done is sadly obvious. Because the Catholic Church is factually the Only God-founded “church,” and has the only set of faith-believes taught by God, and protected and inspired by God; it becomes essential to all other denominations of “competing “mortal man-made” faith beliefs either to alter what the CC actually teaches, or to fabricate their own unsupportable-biblical sets of belief, in order to attract a following.
